1A-A: John Guthrie

John Guthrie (Merchant) 1697SCT – 1741SCT and Ann Dempster
in Dundee, Angus, Scotland

JOHN GUTHRIE
Parents: James Guthrie (merchant) 1669SCT-1710SCT and Christian Scott 1669SCT-aft.1710SCT
Birth: Abt. 14 Jan 1697
Birth Location: Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Baptism/Location: 14 Jan 1697 at Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Marriage/Location: Ann Dempster on 28 May 1722 in Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Occupation: Merchant
Death: 1741 (source?)
Death Location: Unknown, probably Angus, Scotland
Burial Location: Unknown, probably Angus, Scotland
Notes:
John Guthrie was the eldest son of James Guthrie and Christian Scott. He was a merchant like his father and also died at a relatively young age of about 44.

ANN DEMPSTER
Parents: George Dempster (merchant) and Margaret Rait
Birth: abt. 4 June 1703 (see notes)
Birth Location: Dundee, Angus, Scotland (see notes)
Baptism/Location: 4 June 1703 at Dundee, Angus, Scotland (see notes)
Children: James (1723), Christian (1724), George (1725), Margaret (1727), Bell (1729), James (1731), Elizabeth (1735), Jean (1736), John (1738)
Death: 12 May 1774 or 30 Jan 1780 (possibly – see notes)
Death Location: Dundee, Angus, Scotland (see notes)
Burial Location: Dundee, Angus, Scotland
Notes:
Can’t find a birth record in OPR specifically for Ann Dempster, daughter of George Dempster.

There is only one man of that name in the right location with a marriage about the right time, with children listed in the OPR. Margaret Rait has been confirmed as the grandmother of John Guthrie and Ann Dempster’s children as the baptismal records lists their relationships.
Marriage record for a George Dempster to Mart. Rait on 19 Oct 1699 in Dundee. (FindMyPast)
Burial of a Mr George Dempster, merchant on 2 Jun 1753 in Monifieth, Dundee. (FindMyPast)

OPR Birth/Baptismal Records for George Dempster and Margaret Rait. There are 4 and 2 of them have no given name or gender. Possible that one of them belongs to daughter Ann.
Dempster, John 20 Oct 1700 Dundee
Dempster, William 31 Mar 1702 Dundee
Dempster, _____ 4 Jun 1703 Dundee (This one would be 19 in 1722 / DOM)
Dempster, _____ 26 Sep 1714 Dundee (Too late to be Ann)

Burial Records for Dundee list entries without any further specific details:
Anne Guthrie on 12 May 1774 Dundee
Ann Guthrie on 30 Jan 1780 Dundee
An alternate DOD is 1787 with a burial dated 5 March 1787 in Angus, Scotland, but this burial is for Ann Dempster, and not listed under her married name, Ann Guthrie.

CHILDREN: 9

CHILD 1: JAMES GUTHRIE (I)
1723SCT – Bef.1731SCT

The first born son of the family was James Guthrie no doubt named after his paternal grandfather. His baptism was held on 3 February 1723 at Dundee. The record documents his parents, John Guthrie, merchant, and Ann Dempster. This parish held the practice of listing “name fathers” for the boys and “name mothers” for the girls, and these tended to be friends and/or family who had the same given name as the child. In this case, James Guthrie, uncle, and Mr. James Rait, minister. It is perhaps important to note that the boy’s paternal grandfather, James Guthrie, was already deceased in 1710, otherwise he would likely have been listed as a “name father”.

It is believed that this boy died by the time he was 8 years of age, either in infancy or childhood. The reason being that there is another son named James Guthrie born to the family in 1731.

The OPR for Deaths and Burials lists 3 entries for boys or men named James Guthrie being buried in Angus, but there are no ages or causes of death listed. None of them were in Dundee.
1) James Guthrie – March 1724 – Auchterhouse
2) James Guthrie – 10 Apr 1726 – Lundie and Fowlis
3) James Guthrie – 1730 – Tannadice

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – No descendants
Autosomal DNA Participants: N/A – No descendants

CHILD 2: CHRISTIAN GUTHRIE
1724SCT – 1778SCT

Christian Guthrie was born less than a year after her brother James. Her baptism came on 6 January 1724 in Dundee. Parents listed as John Guthrie, merchant, and Ann Dempster. Her “name mothers” include Christian Scott, grandmother, Christian Scott, wife to Mr. Pat: Greenville, merchant.

On 2 September 1755 in Dundee, Christian Guthrie married Robert Speid. The baptismal records of their children indicate that Robert Speid was a merchant.

There is one OPR Death and Burial Record in Dundee for a Robert Speid dated 23 Dec 1775. No specific age, cause of death, or relationships are listed.

There is one OPR Death and Burial Record in Dundee for a Christian Speid dated 21 May 1788. No specific age, cause of death, or relationships are listed.

Children: 6
1) James Speid – Born 17 / Bapt. 21 July 1756 – Dundee – In commemoration for James Speid, grandfather, James Guthrie of Craigie, grand uncle, James Speid, __ uncle. There are a few marriage records in Angus for a James Speid, but I am not certain if this one applies. He would only be about 15, but it does look like their only child came along prior to the wedding. James Speid to Margaret Robertson dated 24 December 1771 in Dundee. Like his father James was a merchant. Only 1 birth/baptismal record found for this couple: Anne Speid – Bapt. 12 Oct 1771 – name mothers: Anne Scrimrour, grandmother Anne Robertson. No further data.
2) Ann Speid – Born 8 / Bapt. 14 June 1757 – Dundee – Ann Dempster, grandmother, Ann Guthrie, daughter to Jas. Guthrie, Craigie, Ann Dempster spouse to John dempster of Dalmichen. It is possible that Ann died in infancy or early childhood as Robert and Christian had a second daughter by the name Anne born in 1767. No further data.
3) Isabell Speid – Born Tues. 9 / Bapt. Thurs. 11 September 1760 – Dundee – Isabell Auchinleck, spouse to Thos. Speid, Isabell Guthrie, spouse to Thomas Read in Jamaica, both Aunts. – baptized by Mr. Charles Roberts. No further data.
4) Elisabeth Speid – Born 13 / Bapt. 16 November 1761 – Dundee – E. Guthrie, daughter to the deceased Jo. Guthrie, aunt, E. Dempster, spouse to Alex. Stuart, now in the King’s (province? presence?), grandaunt. No further data.
5) Robert Speid – Born 17 / Bapt. 19 April 1764 – Dundee – R. Guthrie, merchant in Dundee granduncle, R. Speid of Ardovie cousin. Married. “Robert Speed Esq. W.S. (Writer of the Signet), St Andrew’s Church Parish, and Miss Isabella Hall, Parish of Cathcart, daughter of the deceased James Hall Esq. of Millholm. Dated 6 Nov. 1801 in Edinburgh. Also Recorded: 13 Nov 1801 in Cathcart – “Robert Speid Writer to the Signet and Isabella Hall lawful daughter to the deceased James Hall of Mill Holm of Cathcart – 1 Day.” They had a large family: Margaret (1803), Christina (1805), Robert (1808), James (1810), Isabella (1812), John (1815), William (1816), Thomas Davidson (1818), Henry (1821), and Helen Maria (1825). All were born/baptized in Edinburgh except the last in Brechin. Robert Speid Sr died in 1846. Isabella died in 1857.
6) Anne Speid – Born Thurs. 2 / Bapt. Mon. 6 April 1767 – Dundee – Mrs. A Dempster, spouse to Mr John Guthrie, his grandmother, Mrs A Guthrie, spouse to Mr Ja. Paterson, surgeon, his cousin., Baptized by Mr Roberts. She is not the Anne Speid who married William Croon in Dundee as that record specifies that bride as the daughter of James Speid. No further data.

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – Female Guthrie
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 3: GEORGE GUTHRIE
1725SCT – ????

George Guthrie’s baptism was held on the 25th of January, 1725 in Dundee. The record lists his parents as John Guthrie, merchant, and Ann Dempster. The name fathers were George Dempster, grandfather, and Geo: Rait, Doctor of the ____.

It is possible that George Guthrie also died young, but if he didn’t he may have married in Dundee. Based on dates and location, the most likely marriage would be to Hellen Gordon in Dundee on 22 Dec 1748. A study of the witnesses for their children’s baptisms may provide enough evidence to verify the relationship to this Guthrie family.

Four Birth/Baptismal Records in Dundee: John (1749), Margaret (1752), George (1757), and Isabell (1760).
Witnesses/Sponsors/Godparents (Name Father/ Name Mother):
John’s – John Knight, John Guthrie (no occupations, residences, or relationships listed)
Margaret’s – Margt. Thompson, Margt. Shoak
George’s – George Profitt
Isabell’s – Isabell Yeaman, Isabell Proffit, her daughter.

There are two George Guthrie death and burial records for Dundee in an appropriate time frame. No ages, cause of death, or relationships included.
1) George Guthrie – August 1781 – Dundee
2) George Guthrie – 3 March 1793 – Dundee

There are several death and burial records for Dundee in an appropriate time frame to be George’s wife Helen Guthrie.
1) Helen Guthrie – 19 Nov 1775 – Dundee
2) Helen Guthrie – 14 Feb 1780 – Dundee
3) Helen Guthrie – 12 Apr 1790 – Dundee
4) Helen Guthrie 18 Oct 1797 – Dundee

Children: 4 (potentially)
1) John Guthrie – baptized 1 Oct 1748 – Dundee – No Further Details
2) Margaret Guthrie – baptized 18 Feb 1752 – Dundee – No Further Details
3) George Guthrie – baptized 24 Jul 1757 – Dundee – No Further Details
4) Isabell Guthrie – baptized 23 Mar 1760 – Dundee – No Further Details

Y-DNA Project Participants: No
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 4: MARGARET GUTHRIE
1727SCT – ????

Daughter Margaret Guthrie was baptized on 11 June 1727 in Dundee. She was listed as the child of John Guthrie, merchant, and Ann Dempster. Name Mothers: Margt. Rait, grandmother, Margaret Ochterlonie, spouse of George Ramsay, Margt. Dempster, cousin.

Margaret Guthrie and James Davidsone (Davidson) were contracted on 17 September 1748 and were married the following day on 18 September 1748 in Dundee. They had been proclaimed three times during the Sabbath.

There are numerous Death and Burial Records found for women named Margaret Davidson in Dundee between 1775 – 1824, the last one being 91 years of age.

Children: 2
1) Ann Davidson – Born 15 / Bapt. 22 Sep 1749 – Dundee – In commemoration of Ann Dempster, grandmother
2) Thomas Davidson – bapt. 2 Apr 1751 – Dundee – In commemoration of Thomas Davidson, grandfather

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – Female Guthrie
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 5: BELL GUTHRIE
1729SCT – Aft. 1760

Bell Guthrie, probably an Issobell (or variant), was baptized on 22 July 1729 in Dundee. Her parents were documented as John Guthrie, merchant, and Ann Dempster. Name Mothers were Mrs Bell Guthrie, Lady of Lattermore (?) and Mrs Bell Dempster, aunt.

According to the 1760 baptismal record of her niece & goddaughter, Isabel Speid, Isobell Guthrie was the “spouse of Thomas Read in Jamaica.” The surname might be Reid instead.

No marriage record or OPR birth/baptismal records found.

Children: None Identified

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – Female Guthrie
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 6: JAMES GUTHRIE (II)
1731SCT – ????

James Guthrie, the second of his name amongst John and Ann’s children, was baptized in Dundee on 30 May 1731. His parents are listed by name. His “name fathers” were James Guthrie, uncle, and Mr. James Rait, ___.

If this son survived to adulthood, there are a few Dundee marriage records that might apply.
James Guthrie and Emilia Murray – 26 Nov 1767 – No, this is his cousin of the Craigie line.
James Guthrie (weaver) and Janet Mowat – 4 Dec 1767 – Possibly. Several children.
– Helen (1768) – Name Mothers: Helen Mowat, aunt, Helen Hill
– Janet (1770) – Name Mothers: Janet Angus, great aunt
– James (1773) – Name Fathers: James Nicol, James Young.
– David (1776) – Name Fathers: David Kea, David Bonner
– Thomas (1779) – Name Fathers: The Revd. Mr Thomas Rait, Thos. Smith
James Guthrie and Helen Wood – 4 July 1771 – No children found in OPR for this couple.

No definitive data found on James Guthrie’s death.

Children: None Confirmed

Y-DNA Project Participants: No
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 7: ELIZABETH GUTHRIE
1735SCT – Aft. 1761

Elizabeth Guthrie was born in 1735. Her baptism occurred in Dundee on 11 October 1735, with her parents listed on the record. Name Mothers for the occasion were ELIZ. GAIRN, Lady of Latorn? and her aunt, ELIZ DEMPSTER.

Elizabeth also served as a “name mother” for her own niece, Elizabeth Speid in 1761.

She died unmarried.

Children: None

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – Female Guthrie
Autosomal DNA Participants: N/A – No Descendants

CHILD 8: JEAN GUTHRIE
1736SCT – ????

Jean Guthrie was baptized in Dundee on 31 October 1736. Her “name mother” was Jean Fowler, the spouse to Rob: Guthrie.

Alexander Greenhill, merchant in Dundee, and Ms Jean Guthrie, the daughter of the deceased John Guthrie sometime merchant there, were contracted to marry on 2 Oct 1764 and married on June 5th. Alexander was brother to Charles Greenhill of Fion. The Stirnet site refers to Alexander becoming known by the combined surname Guthrie-Greenhill, but no explanatory data found.

Children: 6
1) Alexander Greenhill – Born 22 / Bapt. 26 Mar 1765 – Dundee – Name Fathers: A Greenhill at Cookson, A. Guthrie mert. Dundee. Witnesses: Elis: Chas. & Charlotte Guthrie.
2) John Greenhill – Born 12 / Bapt. 17 Nov 1766 – Dundee – Name Fathers: In commemoration of J. Guthrie late mert. in Dundee, grandfather, J. Guthrie, mert., uncle
3) Anne Greenhill – Born 28 Apr / Bapt. 4 May 1772 – Dundee – Name Mother: Anne Dempster spouse of the later John Guthrie mercht. in Dundee
4) Mary Greenhill – Born 13 / Bapt. 19 June 1773 – Dundee – No Name Mothers or Witnesses Listed
5) James David Greenhill – Born 27 / Bapt 29 June 1776 – Dundee – Named Fathers: James Webster & David Webster of London. A Major General residing at St Vigeans died on 15 Feb 1840 in Arbroath, Angus, Scotland.
See: Probate Calendar
6) Charles Greenhill – Born 10 / Bapt. 12 Nov 1780 – Dundee – Name Father: Charles Greenhill at Bochan. Death Record – 12 Nov 1836 – Charles Greenhill, merchant, 56 yrs.,Dundee, COD: Decline.

Y-DNA Project Participants: N/A – Female Guthrie
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

CHILD 9: JOHN GUTHRIE
1738SCT – 1786SCT

The youngest of the family, John Guthrie was baptized on the 28 the of December 1738 in Dundee. His “name fathers” were John Dempster of Dalmichen & the father.

John Guthrie, merchant, & Miss Helen Yeaman, sixth daughter of the deceased Patk. Yeaman Esq. of Blacklane were contracted to marry on 27 June 1772 and were married on June 30th.

Children: 5
1) John Guthrie – Born 29 Apr / Bapt. 1 May 1774 – Dundee – Name Father: John Guthrie, grandfather. This son was a major in the 33rd Foot. He later inherited a portion of the Davidson estate (see Strachan Connections) and for legal designations became Major John Guthrie-Davidson, of Ardgaith. He died on 21 May 1854. He was single, and so the estate passed to his younger brother, James.
2) Isabell Guthrie – Born 21 Aug / Bapt. 23 Aug 1775 – Dundee – Name Mothers: Isabell Duncan, Isabell Guthrie. One tree lists her death in Jamaica without a DOD or source. No further data.
3) Patrick Guthrie – Bapt. 8 Oct 1776 – Dundee – Name Fathers: Provost Patrick Yeaman of Blacklane, grandfather. A merchant like most of his Guthrie family, Patrick Guthrie, had business interests in Jamaica. He died at Montego Bay, St James Parish, Jamaica on 21 Dec 1821. (Scots in the West Indies)
4) James Guthrie – Bapt. 30 Jun 1778 – Dundee – Name Fathers: Baily Jas. Guthrie, merchant, Jas. Guthrie Esq of Craigie, Jas. Yeaman, merchant. James Guthrie was also a merchant and had business dealings in Jamaica. He remained single. When his bachelor brother, John, passed away in 1854, James inherited Ardgaith, and so his name underwent a similar change to reflect that the property had been inherited through the Davidson estate trust. He became James Guthrie-Davidson. When James died on 22 Feb 1861, aged 82, Ardgaith went to the Strachan line related to Davidson’s wife.
5) George Guthrie – Bapt. 29 Oct 1779 – Dundee – Name Father: (not listed) – This entry includes a note “A Minute of Session April 1846”. George Guthrie remained single. He died on 22 Feb 1857 at Ferry-Port-on-Craig in Fife, Scotland at 7AM. He was 79. Parents: John Guthrie, merchant, Dundee, and Helen Yeaman. COD: Chronic dyspepsia. Either buried at The Howff in Dundee, or simply memorialized there. (See Inscription below)

Cemetery: The Howff, Dundee, Dundee City, Scotland (Find-a-Grave)
Inscription:
Sacred to the memory of John Guthrie Esq Late Merchant in Dundee
Died 3rd March 1786 aged 47 years
Helen Yeaman his wife (died) 11th June 1818 aged 63
Bridget Yeaman her sister
Wife of Charles Guthrie Esq of ___
died 8th August 1820 aged 63 years
(Major) John Guthrie Davidson of Ardgaith who died 21st May 1853 aged 79 years
George Guthrie Esq died 22 February (1857) aged 78

Legal Records:
Guthrie, Helen, Mrs. – 20/9/1841 – alias Yeaman Widow of John Guthrie Merchant in Dundee
Additional Inventory – Forfar Sheriff Court – SC47/40/14

Y-DNA Project Participants: No (Possibly N/A as this line does not seem to have any male heirs)
Autosomal DNA Participants: No

READING and RESOURCES

WEBSITE: Scotlands People – Marriage Record of John Guthrie and Ann Dempster – OPR Marriages
28/05/1722 GUTHRIE, JOHN (Old Parish Registers Marriages 282/ 120 60 Dundee) Page 60 of 371
Digital Repository: Scotlands People (scotlandspeople.gov.uk)

WEBSITE: The Raitt Stuff
The section on Gravestone Transcriptions Elsewhere in Angus Includes one on Margaret Rait:
Monument for George Dempster and Margaret Rait (Monifieth)
From a marble monument within the church: 
Here lyes the Body of George Dempster of Dunnichen, Merchant in Dundee,
who died 2d June 1752, in the 75th Year of his Age.
And also the Body of Margaret Rait, his Spouse, who died —
April 1740, in the — Year of her Age.
And also his Father, John Dempster, Minister of this Parish, who died April 1710.

BOOK: Jervise, Andrew (1875). Epitaphs & inscriptions from burial grounds & old buildings in the north-east of Scotland, with historical, biographical, genealogical, and antiquarian notes, also, an appendix of illustrative papers. Edinburgh, Edmonston and Douglas. Digital Repository: Archive.org.
p.xxiv – Mentions Mr Dempster of Monifieth, father of the first Dempster of Dunnichen
p. 108 – In addition to the memorial epitaph, there is an extensive section on George Dempster indicating that his wife Margaret Rait “was a daughter of Mr William Rait, minister of Monikie, and a laird of Pitforthy, by Margaret Yeaman (possibly Issobell Yeman who m. William Rate 12 Apr 1673), a daughter of the laird of Dryburgh. Pitforthy came to Mrs Dempster’s grandfather, who was minister of Dundee, and Principal of the College of Aberdeen, through is marriage with the heiress. She was a daughter of the last Guthrie of Pitforthy, and a niece of the Rev. James Guthrie (should read William Guthrie) of Fenwick, author of the Christian’s Great Interest.”
The children of William Raitt and “Isabell Zeaman” are listed in the OPR for Brechin:
Marat. Raitt 20 May 1676 Brechin
Isabell Raitt 9 Jan 1678 Brechin
Elizabeth Raitt 19 Feb 1679 Brechin

WEBSITE: Strachan Family Connections
Mentions some Guthries connected to this family including stating that “Robert Speid of Ardovie, W.S., Robert’s mother was Christian Guthrie.”
Importantly for this line, there is also discussion about the Davidson estate heirs and how the Guthries are involved in the inheritance of Ardgaith. Not only that, but those feudal laws kick in that effect a name change on the heirs. John Guthrie became John Guthrie-Davidson and his younger brother inheriting after him became James Guthrie-Davidson.

WEBSITE: Arbirlot (Angus) Records, Sources, & Information about the Parish of Arbirlot
Includes information on some Guthries and also mentions Margaret, daughter of Robert Speid of Ardovie.

WEBSITE/JOURNAL ARTICLE: Millar, A. H. “Bishop Norie’s Dundee Baptismal Register, 1722-26.” The Scottish Historical Review, vol. 4, no. 13, 1906, pp. 73–82. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/25517803. 
Also found: The Scottish Historical Review. (1907). United Kingdom: Edinburgh University Press for the Scottish Historical Review Trust. Includes “Bishop Norie’s Dundee Baptismal register, 1722-26” Digital Repository: Google Books.
1) James Guthrie son to John Guthrie merchant in Dundie was baptized in his own house in Dundie february 3 – 1723 – by Mr Robert Norie minister at Dundie before witnesses.
2) Christian Guthrie daughter to John Guthrie merchant in Dundie was baptized in John Guthrie his house on January 7–1724 years by Mr Robert Norie minister att. Dundie before witnesses
3) George Guthrie son to John Guthrie merchant in Dundie was baptized in his house on the 25th day of January 1725 by Bishop Norie before witnesses.

BOOK: McKean, Charles, Bob Harris, and Christopher A. Whatley (eds), Dundee: Renaissance to Enlightenment (Edinburgh, 2009; online edn, Edinburgh Scholarship Online, 17 Sept. 2015)

BOOK: Norrie, W. “Dundee Celebrities of the Nineteenth Century: being a series of biographies of distinguished or noted persons connected by birth, residence, official appointment, or otherwise with the Town of Dundee; and who have died during the present century.” Dundee. 1873. Digital Repository: Electric Scotland.
See Index. There are no bios for Guthries, but you can do a general search for the surname. Also look for Dempster, Rait, Reid.

BOOK: Hay, G. (1899). History of Arbroath to the Present Time: With Notices of the Civil and Ecclesiastical Affairs of the Neighbouring District. United Kingdom: Thomas Buncle. Digital Repository: Google Books.
Inscription for Major-General James David Greenhill.

PROBATE CALENDAR: England & Wales, National Probate Calendar. Digital Repository: Ancestry.com


DOCUMENT: Ordinace Survey Documents – OS1/25/27/46 – Newlands of Ardgaith – James Guthrie Davidson
Digital Repository: ScotlandsPlaces.

DATABASE/INDEXED: Ancestry.com. Scots in the West Indies, 1707-1857 [database on-line]. Provo, UT, USA: Ancestry.com Operations, Inc., 2013. This collection was indexed by Ancestry World Archives Project contributors.Original data: Dobson, David. Scots in the West Indies, 1707–1857. n.p.: Clearfield Company, Inc., 1998.
Four GUTHRIE Entries:
Guthrie, James, in Jamaica 1712 [SRO.GD44.14.4.9]
Guthrie, James, died in Westmoreland parish, Jamaica, 10.7.1728 [Cross Path g/s, Jamaica]
Guthrie, John, born 1687, died in Westmoreland parish, Jamaica, 13.6.1739. [Cross Path g/s. Jamaica]
Guthrie, Patrick, born in Dundee 8.10.1776, a merchant, died at Montego Bay, St James Parish, Jamaica, 21.12.1821. [Montego Boy g/s, Jamaica]